106: Father’s Day ‘98

Chana Wiliford

One of the first things I wanted to start with, Dad, was like when you and mom got together. For example, I know that-- I think, anyway-- you guys met in a bar. And then like two weeks later, you were married.

Bob Wiliford

Yeah. It was a very short romance.

Chana Wiliford

You know, what made you guys get married so quickly?

Bob Wiliford

Yeah, it was kind of a whirlwind thing, you know? I know in my-- from my side of it-- I was looking for somebody. I needed someone in my life. And I guess, you know, she basically was in the same situation. So we both just were looking for somebody, and we ended up hooking up.

Chana Wiliford

Yeah.

Chana Wiliford

Well, what was the family reaction? I know Nana couldn't have been entirely pleased.

Bob Wiliford

I don't know, you know. I really don't know. You know, I never really asked anybody. Of course, you know, I was in the Marine Corp., and I didn't really care what anybody thought about anything.

Chana Wiliford

Well, yeah, you were how-- you were how old? Like 25 at the time, right?

Bob Wiliford

25. Yeah. I was 25. And I had always told myself, you know, that I was going to live hard and party till I got to be 25, and then I was going to get married.

Chana Wiliford

So you stuck with it.

Bob Wiliford

Sure enough, that's the way it ended up.

Chana Wiliford

One of my original questions, when first asked to interview you, basically was-- the first thing that just popped into my head, that I've never asked, that every kid wants to know, is where was I conceived?

Bob Wiliford

Where were you conceived?

Chana Wiliford

If you even remember.

Bob Wiliford

Yeah, I think I remember. If I remember correct, I believe it was out at Lake Athens.

Chana Wiliford

Lake Athens.

Bob Wiliford

Yeah. It was late, you know, one or two in the morning, whatever. And I [UNINTELLIGIBLE] in that old maroon pickup truck, if you remember that. I had like a blanket or something because we ended up in the bed of the truck. And that's--

Chana Wiliford

Maybe that was the wrong question to ask.

Bob Wiliford

Well--

Chana Wiliford

And as far as, like, me growing up, and things like that, you know, just-- I don't know. You know, going which way I want to go now. How has that been for you to watch me? You know, kind of like not be like everybody else where I grew up?

Bob Wiliford

Well, truthfully, I'm glad. You know? And there's some of it, you know, that has scared me. I mean, just the fact that you're in Philadelphia still scares me. Because I worry about you, and I worry about, you know--

Chana Wiliford

Well, of course.

Bob Wiliford

--something happening to you, and all that kind of stuff. But I don't know. I enjoy watching you, you know? I mean, it's-- I don't know. There's nothing in this world that's ever pleased me more than you. You're great, you know? I just can't tell you. I just couldn't be prouder.

Chana Wiliford

Well, kind of back to the history thing. You know, of course, you guys got divorced last May, I guess. I don't even really remember. And then you got remarried in what? December?

Bob Wiliford

Yeah, I believe that's right.

Chana Wiliford

Yeah, I think. So that's got to seem a little strange to every-- well, to yourself, too, I'm sure. But it definitely seems strange to everyone around you. I can assure that.

Bob Wiliford

Well, it is. It definitely is. And even to me, you know? I don't know how else to look at it, Chana. I've thought about it over and over and over. All's I know is I love her. And I can't live with her and I can't live without her. You know, that old saying. I don't know. I'm just not sure. You know, what the problem is or what the-- even myself, I can't figure it out. At this point, I can't swear it won't happen again. If it does, it's not going to be my fault.

Chana Wiliford

Well, do you think that the last time was your fault?

Bob Wiliford

Yeah, I guess, in a way it was. Because, you know, I got in trouble again. My drinking thing. And I don't know that the divorce was actually my fault. Because I told her, we should just slow down and get a look at the big picture, it's not that bad. But she was determined to make her point. And so she did what she did. She filed for divorce. We did the divorce. And then I guess she did realize it wasn't that bad. And so we ended up getting back together.

Chana Wiliford

Well, you know, on my end of the deal, I was just kind of confused, you know? I don't know. I think I was, not happy, but more relieved, at the fact that you guys were splitting up. Just because of all the problems that I've seen over the years. And then it just kind of-- I don't know. I was disappointed. Maybe just with the situation in general, kind of with you.

Bob Wiliford

Yeah, I know you were. But I've got to be happy, too. Or at least whatever I think's happy.

Chana Wiliford

Well, I'm not going to say I didn't want you to be happy. But you know, I kind of thought that maybe you could finally find your happiness somewhere else. You know what I mean?

Bob Wiliford

Yeah, but I don't know that-- that wasn't working out. I just couldn't-- I don't know. It's weird, you know, when you're married for that long to be not married. And I really didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to go about it. And I feel a lot more comfortable, even if I'm not totally happy, I feel safe when I'm married, you know what I mean? And, you know, it always goes back to the fact that I love the girl. I don't know what else.

Chana Wiliford

I don't know. I just worry about you, you know what I mean?

Bob Wiliford

Really?

Chana Wiliford

Yeah. I want to make sure that you're happy, for the most part.

Bob Wiliford

Oh, I'm going to get happy. You know, I mean, one way or the other, I'm going to get happy. I've got the biggest thing there is, right there in you. And Wes, and Leah, and these grandkids, you know? That's my reward in life. Y'all are. You know? Y'all are it. That's what dads do. That's what I do, anyway.

Bob Wiliford

Of course, you know, a dad's-- one of dad's main concerns is your love life. Your situation with sex and how that situation is-- I don't know how to put it-- coming along, I guess. Is it a problem or are you just handling it?

Chana Wiliford

No, it's not a problem. Of course, I'm sure you can just kind of--

Bob Wiliford

My major concern is you're being safe.

Chana Wiliford

Yeah. Well, definitely.

Sanantonio Brooks

There's a lot of young fathers in the building. So they don't really celebrate Father's Day like other people celebrate Father's Day, because they're young fathers. Like, what happened last year? I know a lot of fathers got together. They got a lot of beer. They smoke weed, so they all gathered around in one room, and they was just sitting there chilling. Just talked about, you know what I'm saying, things that they did in their childhood. Like that, what was going on around the building in the day, what they going to be doing all later in the future, and stuff like that.

Sanantonio Brooks

Some people did more than avoid. They literally dodged me.

Sanantonio Brooks

I can't say for sure. It was like, a lot of them just didn't want to really be interviewed about Father's Day.

Man 1

Hold up [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

Sanantonio Brooks

A lot of people, they didn't want the environment that I have for them. So I had to catch them at their time.

Man 2

OK.

Man 2

First I wanted to go crazy. Then at first-- then after that, when I seen them coming into the world, I changed. I enjoyed it.

Man 2

Mm-hmm. You know how people, when they young and they ain't got no kids, they want to party all the time. Pfft. When you get kids, partying stops. The money-- the little money you do have, got to go towards them kids. Kids deserve everything you can possibly give them. Love, everything.

Man 2

Every weekend.

Man 2

Whenever I get some money.

Sanantonio Brooks

Some of them, they straight with their kids, they take care of their kids. Then the other ones, they-- they don't even-- it's like they claim their kids but they don't do nothing for them. It's like they play the father role every now and then.

Sanantonio Brooks

Nuh-uh. It depends. Now, because most of them, they not working. So they downstairs, serving drugs or whatever. And many times-- mostly they ain't making too much money, you know what I'm saying? To take care of themselves. So most of them ain't really looking out for their kids.

Sanantonio Brooks

Nope, not all of them. Most of them's just down [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. And when they be down there, they just make-- barely make enough to eat from day to day. Just down there hustling.

Sanantonio Brooks

Most of them, I'd say, they had feelings for their fathers, but it wasn't too deep. Because they felt that their father was not around. So they really had a lot of regrets and then a lot of hostility built up inside.

Man 3

No, he wasn't. My father was gone. Just put it like that, you know what I'm saying. Bad childhood. So I didn't basically see my father but maybe three times in my life.

Man 3

Actually, you want to know the truth? I'm a devil in disguise. So it's like I had to see it in person, see him in person, for me to react on that. But at the same time, my feelings now, I'd probably kill him.

Sanantonio Brooks

Everybody I grew up with, it's like their fathers either left at an early age or they passed away, or something like that. Basically, their fathers dropped in and out of their lives just like mine did.

Sanantonio Brooks

Right. It's a cycle that-- everybody in our building, they-- they pay-- I see it. They pass it on from generation to generation. It just stays in the building. It's like, they don't know how to take those steps to change it.

Man 4

I can't explain. My father left and he hasn't been back since.

Man 4

My kid sees me and my kid smiles all the time, every time my kid sees me.

Man 4

Yes.

Man 4

No.

Man 3

Man, it was wow. But at the same time, I was bogus. Because I could have been there when he was born. I ain't going to trip though.

Man 3

When I get a chance. I got to say that. When I get a chance. But at the same time, I know you're well taken care of.

Man 3

As often as I can. That's the same-- that's just like asking the same question. I can't buy him nothing unless I'm around him. I'm going to ship it in the mail? I'm not rolling like that. So when I get a chance to, that's when I do what I can. Because the little things I do do, at least I did it. And I can't say nobody made me do this, because my father wasn't there for me, when I was growing up. So therefore, the little things I do, I do appreciate, and he do-- Jeremy do too.

Man 4

I feel great.

Man 4

Daddy did the best that he can. And he's going to keep on doing the best he can.

Sanantonio Brooks

I think, compared to how their fathers treat them, I feel that they're doing pretty good for themselves if they're seeing them two times a week, if they only seen their father once, twice a year.

Sanantonio Brooks

Yes. Well, to them it does seem like a lot because-- it's hard to explain. In my situation, if my father came to see me two or three times in a week, I think it would have made a difference. So I think, basically, they're making a difference in their kids life.

Sanantonio Brooks

How often do I see my father? I seen my father-- the last time I seen him-- it's been, I'd say, three years ago. Then before that, it'd been at least two. So he'll pop in like every two, three years.

Sanantonio Brooks

It probably would have made a lot of difference. I know I probably wouldn't have growed up the way I growed up now. There's just a lot of things, but I really can't say for sure.

Man 3

Well, my son often tell me I'm a surv-- daddy, you're a survivor, ain't you? Yeah, I'm a survivor. Because I've been out here too long. You know what I'm saying? I don't want to work, do things like that. So only thing they basically can say is I was out here bogus, but I also was a survivor. I did what I could for him, as well as for anybody else. But I basically had to live for myself. Because that's all I got, actually is self.

Sanantonio Brooks

It is, like, you really can't be angry with them because you know them. And then you still love then. But you're disappointed in the way that he left you. And in some ways, you probably know why he left, but then you want to get the understanding out of his mouth, why he left. And that's something that, my father, he hasn't done yet. I asked him-- he knows I know why he left, but he-- it's like he won't explain why he can't come into my life now, even though I'm getting older. So, it's still-- I'm upset, and then in a way I'm mad, but mostly upset. Because right about now, I feel that if he really wanted to be in my life, he would've-- it's coming down to graduation. He would have asked me, was I graduating? What it is I'm doing? He ain't even call for that. So I'm not letting none of that bother me or worry me.

Sanantonio Brooks

Yes.

Sanantonio Brooks

Yeah. As a matter of fact, that's what it is. Because I feel that if I make-- if I call up there-- for me, it will seem like I'm making the first move. And I feel I shouldn't have to. Because that's my father and I'm the kid. You know what I'm saying? Like he won't reach out to me, so why should I reach out to somebody that doesn't want to reach out to me?

Sanantonio Brooks

Probably.

Man 3

You see, I had to see myself as a daddy. A father is one who is able to take care of their child. I'm not there yet. So I don't recognize myself as a father.

Terry

When we went up to the birthing suites at the hospital, you know, hours after he was born. And watched him get all his reflex exams and his first bath. It was like, you know, I felt attached to him. I felt like watching him every moment because this was our-- this was it. This was the one. You know, he was so pretty and he was so beautiful. He was just this like perfect little baby boy that had been put in our lives. You want to hear the horsey song? Giddyup, giddyup, giddyup--

Terry

We love you so when you ride out yonder on our little knee. We love you so when you ride out yonder and you go bleh, whee. Little boy, little boy, little boy, DJ. Little boy, little boy, little boy, horsey. Little boy, little boy, little boy, little boy.

Terry

I did. That's an original.

Terry

I do see that. And I don't mind it. I love staying home with him. He's so wonderful. He's so great. And he's so much fun to stay home with and play with and watch smile all day. And now that he's beginning to coo and make all sorts of funny sounds, it's just great.

Terry

Making cookies and going to PTA meetings and volunteering for being a chaperone, going to the zoo. Being a kindergarten volunteer. Helping kids cut and paste and keep things out of their mouths.

Terry

Well, in my family, I mean, my dad did everything. My dad cooked, he cleaned. He made pies in the summer. He built houses. He reroofed garages. But he also helped with homework. And I feel like I'm doing the same amount of work my father would have done. I kind of feel like I'm sort of following in the footsteps of my own father.

Lawrence Weschler

She would get into very active conversations with the characters in the books while we were reading. So, for example, when we were reading Little House on the Prairie, there would be these moments where she would interrupt my reading and say, wait a second, I want to talk to the Indian. And we'd have to go look for a picture of the Indian, and she'd say to the Indian, "Look, Indian, in a few pages you're going to meet Laura. But you've got to be-- understand, I know she's taking your land, but it's not her fault. She's just a kid. Now let me talk to Laura." And we'd go back and we'd talk to Laura. And in these things, I would take on the role of the Indian, and I'd say things like, you know, who's that talking? And so forth. And we would have these incredibly elaborate conversations. Do you remember that, Sara?

Sara Weschler

Yes.

Lawrence Weschler

Anyway, this sort of thing would go on all the time, and at a later point we began reading The Borrowers series. The series of wonderful books by Mary Noble.

Sara Weschler

Norton. Norton.

Lawrence Weschler

By Mary Norton, that's right. And should Sara describe what the book is about, maybe?

Sara Weschler

Well, the Borrowers-- it's about these little people who are, I think, like four inches tall. And they live under the floorboards in the house. And what they do is they take things from people, little things that they can use around their house.

Lawrence Weschler

So what kinds of things do they take?

Sara Weschler

Well, they take pocket watches, and stamps, for like pictures on the wall.

Lawrence Weschler

And part of the point about Borrowers is that they're not allowed-- are they allowed to talk to people?

Sara Weschler

No.

Lawrence Weschler

Do you want to talk about that a little bit?

Sara Weschler

Well, because they think that people can really hurt them, because according to the book it's happened before.

Lawrence Weschler

So anyway, we were reading this book. And one day I came home and Sara was incredibly excited. Her face was just glowing, and she said, "Daddy, you won't believe it! We have Borrowers here in our own house!" And my memory is that-- maybe you remember this differently, Sara-- but my memory was that she went to a particular place in the basement and she pointed at this little kind of hole in the wall in the basement, near the floor. And she said, "I was coming down the stairs and there was one of them standing right there, a little girl, and she was wearing a pink taffeta skirt." That's what you said. "And I froze, and she froze, and we looked at each other. And I knew I wasn't supposed to talk to her, and that she shouldn't talk to me, but we just looked at each other. And after about 30 seconds, she kind of waved her hand, just slightly, and she ran away. And it was right there." And Sara took me to the place where it was.

Sara Weschler

Well, I remember having seen-- well, you see. It's like-- it's sort of strange to say this, because like-- I feel like I'm betraying the Borrowers. But I still believe in them. And like if I ever actually got to meet one, I'd never tell anyone. And I do remember having seen something. And it wasn't really for 30 seconds. It was like for maybe 10 seconds. And then it ran away.

Sara Weschler

Yeah, yeah. I didn't imagine it. It was definitely there.

Sara Weschler

Yeah, I think.

Lawrence Weschler

And then, over the next few days, Sara began leaving things for this Borrower. And the first thing in the morning she would race downstairs to see whether the things had been picked up.

Sara Weschler

I left like-- sometimes I'd leave like toothpicks or pieces of food.

Sara Weschler

Oh, just like to dig with, and you know?

Sara Weschler

Yeah. Walking stick, things like that.

Lawrence Weschler

Anyway, so she would leave these things there, and she would be so disappointed. And disappointment verging on desolation that they weren't picked up. And she'd have long conversations with me. She'd say, "You know, why aren't they picking them up? Don't they know that I'm giving it to them?" And I would try to explain that maybe, maybe they were scared or nervous or something. That's how Borrowers are. But she was so sad. And this went on-- I figured this would end-- but at a certain point, this went on for a week. And I don't know why I did it because it began a cascade of consequences. But one night I picked up the stuff and put it in my pocket. And the next morning she came bounding up the stairs saying, "Daddy, you won't believe it! There are Borrowers, just like I said! They took the stuff! They took the stuff!" And she was transported with delight. And I figured that would be the end of it. But it wasn't.

Sara Weschler

I started writing to them. I started writing letters.

Sara Weschler

I'll read the first one. OK.

Sara Weschler

Seven. Dear Borrowers, I have seen you but I want to meet you. If I do, I will not tell anyone without your permission. Agreed or not agreed? And then this says, Borrowers--

Lawrence Weschler

Well, then-- just one second. So what happened is that that note, on a little yellow Post-it, lay by the hole for several days. And for several mornings, Sara would be completely devastated that it had not been answered. So I went through several days of not quite knowing what to do, because she was getting more and more sad about this, and more concerned. And so then I figured, well, it won't do any harm to pick up the piece of paper and write a little tiny message back. Which I did.

Sara Weschler

Yeah, it's on the same piece of paper.

Sara Weschler

Dear Sara, gosh, this is strange. Who are you? How do you know about Borrowers? I thought no human beings ever knew about us. My dad says it's too dangerous for Borrowers to meet a human being. And he even says I mustn't write to you. But maybe at least I can write. Will you write back? I hope so. I will keep it a secret from my dad. Signed, Annabellie. P.S., I am 11. How about you?

Sara Weschler

Mm-hmm.

Lawrence Weschler

Do you remember that morning, what you said when you came up the stairs?

Sara Weschler

No.

Lawrence Weschler

Oh, she was just, "They are-- I told you! I told you! And she answered, she answered! And she wants me to write back!" And she was over the moon. And she wrote back immediately.

Sara Weschler

Yeah.

Lawrence Weschler

Well, it was unclear. I mean, it was a possibility. And it was up to Sara to keep dredging and find out more. And so there-- a large part of the correspondence is Sara doing genealogical work on the family. And asking all kinds of questions.

Sara Weschler

Yeah. I would ask like, what was your grandmother's name? And it turned out that her grandmother was Arrietty, which is the main character.

Sara Weschler

Yeah. And she says that she calls her dad Pea, like as in a peapod. Because in the book the dad is Pod. And then she calls her mom Hommy, because in the book the mother is Homily.

Sara Weschler

I think there were-- well, there were over 17. Because I didn't finish counting, but I counted up to 17.

Lawrence Weschler

And there came to be a crisis in the midst of all this, which was that we were going to be moving about half a mile, 3/4 of a mile. And she got into a darker and darker mood, and was really, again, almost desolate. And one day she said, "Daddy, we can't move. What about the Borrowers? What's going to happen to them? They'll starve to death! I've been feeding them for weeks. What are we going to do?"

Sara Weschler

And so what we ended up doing was my dad said, "Well, they can move with us." And then what I did is I made a map of how to get to our house.

Lawrence Weschler

She did this very elaborate map. And Sara said, "But they're not going to be able to do this all in one day." And so what she did is she found-- what did you do?

Sara Weschler

Well, there's this restaurant called Villa Nova Equals E in Pelham. And there's this kind of like radiator thing on the outside, I don't know exactly what it is. But there was a hole there big enough for a Borrower to get through. And so what I did is I put some cloth in there to make it comfortable. And well, I told them that they could rest there. Because they could probably make the first half of the trip during the first day. And then it was really close to 5th Avenue, which is our busiest street in Pelham. So that when they had to cross 5th Avenue to get to the other part of Pelham, they could do it in the middle of the night.

Sara Weschler

Because the cars wouldn't be going back and forth.

Lawrence Weschler

It was going to take them like an hour to get across the street.

Sara Weschler

Not an hour. Like 15 minutes.

Lawrence Weschler

OK, excuse me. So suddenly the whole project of moving went from being a near disaster to being a delight. And every time we moved Sara would run downstairs to see whether they had, in fact, brought some of their stuff over, because they had to do it in several different trips, right?

Sara Weschler

Yeah.

Lawrence Weschler

And each time, it would turn out that they had brought some stuff over, right?

Sara Weschler

Yeah.

Lawrence Weschler

Parenthetically, it was fairly easy to know what they had because it had all been in my pockets, as I'd been picking it up over the many months of the correspondence. I had a whole shoebox full of stuff that Sara had been leaving for the Borrowers, so I just kind of transported little sprinklings of it each time we moved some of our stuff over.

Lawrence Weschler

Well, it was getting strange and actually kind of nerve-wracking. And I would do things like-- I kept on figuring that Sara was going to grow out of this. Or that Sara would associate-- would make the association that this was kind of like what we used to do when I would read about the Indian, or about Laura. I kept on thinking that she would just kind of enjoy that. But she was getting more and more into it. And it was becoming more and more involved. And the more involved, the more I could see how invested Sara was in it. I mean, it really was the main thing going on in her life during that season. And as she began telling friends about it and so forth, the stories had to get more and more elaborate to include all the stray bits of details that were seeping into things. And I didn't quite know where it was going to go. I would do things. I would send the Borrowers on vacations.

Lawrence Weschler

I would send them-- I would just have them suddenly disappear for a while. And they'd be gone for a while. And I would hope that by the time it was over, Sara would have forgotten. But on the day-- you know, I'd say they'd be gone three weeks. Three weeks later on that day there'd be a note for them from Sara. I'd send them into the woods. There was a little park nearby and for them this was a huge national park. And there was a stream and this was the equivalent of the Mississippi for them. And I would send them off and hoping that Sara would get over it, would move on.

Sara Weschler

No, no, I--

Lawrence Weschler

But what was really funny, Sara, is that you would say things sometimes like, "Daddy, it's really weird. Annabellie uses the same kind of pen as you do." And then you'd say, "Yeah, I guess she must have stolen one of your pens." And then one day I heard her talking to her friend, Megan. She said, "Annabellie's handwriting is just like my dad's, only really tiny." She would say things like this and yet not put it together.

Sara Weschler

I really hadn't-- like, the second I suspected it, I was almost sure that it had been him. And I just went up and asked him if it was him.

Sara Weschler

I think it was sort of the fact-- not his handwriting, actually. It was that I would tell my dad, for instance, that I was in the basement and I stuck my finger into this hole and I felt something sort of like silky or something. It was probably just some like old piece of cloth that was stuck there. But I felt it and I told my dad-- and it sort of slipped away from my finger. I told my dad about it. And then in the next letter, I'd hear-- Annabellie would be saying, oh, I think that-- was that you who touched me when I was wearing my silk dress? And so I started to think, like I tell my dad things that sometimes I'd exaggerate a little bit. Because when I was younger I exaggerated some things. I made things a little bit more exciting than they might have really been. And then like I read the letter and it had that exaggerated part in it. And so I'd say, like, well, that didn't really happen. I was just like sort of adding that to my story. And so that's--

Sara Weschler

Yeah, and I asked my dad--

Lawrence Weschler

So what happened there was, We had moved to the new house. We'd been there for a couple months at that point. And I was down in the basement moving some boxes around. And Sara came down there and--

Lawrence Weschler

She's now eight.

Lawrence Weschler

At this point in the story, yeah. And she-- and she began looking-- her lips were trembling. Her lower lip was trembling. And she looked at me very firmly as she is quite capable of doing. And she said, "Daddy, I'm going to ask you a question now. And you have to tell the truth because it's a sin for daddies to lie to their daughters." And my heart just sank. And she said, "Daddy, are you the one who's been writing Annabellie's notes?" And I looked at her, and she looked at me, and there was like silence for five or six seconds. And then I said, "Um, it's kind of complicated, can we talk?" And she said, "Daddy, it's not complicated. It's simple. Are you the one?" And I said, "Well, can we talk about it later?" She said, "No, just tell me. Are you the one or not?" And I took a big breath and I said, "Yes, it is me." And she broke into--

Sara Weschler

I was crying.

Lawrence Weschler

Oh god, she was sobbing.

Sara Weschler

I was so sad.

Lawrence Weschler

She started sobbing. It was easily the most wrenching thing that had happened in my parenthood up to that point. I mean, I had totally blown it. I just felt like a total disaster. And I was crying and she was crying. And you know, we were both kind of clutching each other and holding each other. And we were really in a trap there. We were down the hole at that point. We were in big trouble. And suddenly this kind of calm came over Sara's face. It was kind of like the sun rising in the morning. And her forehead stopped being furrowed, it became smooth. And she just looked at me and she said, "Daddy, don't you realize? You ruined everything. Because there are Borrowers! And you were taking the letters before they were able to get them." And it was a way of-- she had solved everything there. Because among other things, that was what she was going to be able to tell her friends. And they could all chortle about what kind of a crazy father she had. And it was amazing. She found a way of getting us out of this disaster that I suppose I had fashioned for us.

Sara Weschler

Because I remember saying that you should have left it there. Maybe they would have really written back. You shouldn't have done it because maybe they would have actually written back to me finally at some point. Like I said earlier, I still believe in them. And I know that might sound really babyish to some kids who might listen to this. But I still believe in them. And when I told Megan, my friend, when I told Megan that it had been my dad, she stopped believing in them. And she was just like, whenever I'd talk about it from them on, she'd laugh at me and tell me, "Oh, Sara, stop being a baby." Because she's a year older then me, so she-- at that time, she still considered herself really superior to me, even though we're best friends. And she said, "Oh, Sara, stop being a baby. It's not true. It's just not true." And I said, "But I've seen them." And she said, "No, you haven't. You just imagined it. And it's not true. And you can just stop imagining it and stop telling me about it because it's not true."

Lawrence Weschler

How do you feel about it now when you look at those letters?

Sara Weschler

I don't know. Like sometimes when I read them, I still sort of can think that, you know, I wonder why this happened to her? I wonder why that happened to her? I wonder why she would say that? Even though I know that it was my dad writing to me, I still sometimes sort of think of there being an Annabellie somewhere out there.

Lawrence Weschler

When we pulled out the box last night, of letters, did it bring you pleasure to look at those letters? Did you--

Sara Weschler

Well, actually I look at it a lot.

Lawrence Weschler

You do?

Sara Weschler

Yeah.

Sara Weschler

Well, I just think it was sort of-- now looking back, it was sort of nice of him to do. Because I remember, when it was happening, and after I'd figured out that it was him, I had asked him, well, can we still sort of write to each other? We never really actually wrote to each other after that, but I just sort of thought after a while that it was a nice thing. And that even though maybe there was no Borrower writing to me, there was maybe-- having my dad make up this whole family was maybe just as special, or maybe almost as special as having actually been writing to a Borrower.

Sara Weschler

I don't know. Because like it was really fun for me to have this kind of experience. But when I found out that it was my dad writing, it was really upsetting. And so I just don't know. I think that if I were a parent and I had that kind of thing, I would not pick it up.

Sara Weschler

No, I would keep encouraging my kid, my child, to keep on writing to the Borrowers and trying to get them to write back, but I wouldn't pick it up.

Lawrence Weschler

What if they keep coming to you, so sad every morning, the way you were sad coming to me, and just pleading, I wish, I wish, I wish they would come. Can you imagine ever picking it up?

Sara Weschler

No.

Lawrence Weschler

Really?

Sara Weschler

It's just-- I don't think it's fair to lead someone on like that.

Lawrence Weschler

I mean, I'd like to say that had I to live it over again I wouldn't do it this way, but I'm not sure. Because it started so naturally. And in the end, by the, way, what I'd have to say is probably the most poignant, closest, amazing moment I've had as a single-- you know, the moment I'll remember of a particular phase in my life, is the holding onto each other in the basement, both of us crying. But Sara not running away, and Sara saving us. And that kind of cemented our relationship in a really kind of wonderful way. So I mean, I don't--

Sara Weschler

It might not end that way for everybody.

Lawrence Weschler

Yeah, it might not end that way for everybody, that's true. I continue to puzzle about it. And it is unresolved for me as my answer is indicating, I suppose.

Lawrence Weschler

Yeah, I absolutely feel that. Has it affected our relationship, do you think? Do you not trust me in a way you used to trust me?

Sara Weschler

No, no, no. I still trust you.

Sara Weschler

Well, I'm very close to my dad. So I don't know. Yeah, I guess so. But it's not like much closer than I am usually. Because I'm very close to my dad like all the time. But yeah, it is one of the times that I was closest, I guess. Yeah.

Lawrence Weschler

So my heart is in my throat.

Sara Weschler

Well, I have seen-- well, I'm not sure, because I've seen them in the shadows. The only time I'm absolutely positive I saw one was downstairs in the basement of my old house. But I have seen them since. Sometimes I'll go and I'll sit at the basement steps and look around. And sometimes I'll be making, let's say, a cake. And I'll leave a little bit of dough wrapped in some paper by the staircase, at the basement, in the basement, for them to take.

Sara Weschler

Well, I don't know. Because I don't find it, but then again, who knows what that might be. It could be--

Sara Weschler

Mouse. Dad.

Lawrence Weschler

A mouse or a dad. This child is afflicted.

[LAUGHTER]

Sara Weschler

I don't want us to listen to it at the house. Because if there are still Borrowers in our house, I don't want them to hear that and think that they can't trust me. Because it's right now, I'm like telling their whole story. So I feel like I'm sort of betraying them, you know? And I just like wanted to make sure that they knew that, you know, if I actually did meet one, I wouldn't tell anyone. I would never tell a single person in the world.